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[openstack-dev] [OSC][ironic][mogan] Can we share the same keyword 'baremetal'?

0 votes

hi all,

I'm from the Mogan team, we chose the same keyward 'baremetal' when
implementing a OSC plugin [1]. As we think the baremetal command is
representative of a baremetal resource, not a service, so it makes sense
for different projects to share the top level resource name that OpenStack
can provide.

The commands we have implemented are listed below, seems there's no
collision with Ironic presently, and Ironic doesn't manage such resources.

  • openstack baremetal server
  • openstack bareemtal flavor
  • openstack baremetal keypair
  • openstack baremetal availability zone

So, we'd like to ask if our CLI pattern is allowed before we release the
client.

Thanks in advance!

[1] https://github.com/openstack/python-moganclient

--
Best Regards,
Zhenguo Niu


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asked May 26, 2017 in openstack-dev by Zhenguo_Niu (2,400 points)   1 4

7 Responses

0 votes

On 05/25/2017 10:20 AM, Zhenguo Niu wrote:
hi all,

Hi!

I'm from the Mogan team, we chose the same keyward 'baremetal' when implementing
a OSC plugin [1]. As we think the baremetal command is representative of a
baremetal resource, not a service, so it makes sense for different projects to
share the top level resource name that OpenStack can provide.

We do not "own" the word "baremetal", so nothing prevents you from using it.
However, in my experience:
1. This does confuse users, as they expect "openstack baremetal" to be a prefix
belonging to Ironic.
2. Collisions may happen. We had two collisions with TripleO already, one
resulted in us killing a TripleO command abruptly.

The commands we have implemented are listed below, seems there's no collision
with Ironic presently, and Ironic doesn't manage such resources.

  • openstack baremetal server
  • openstack bareemtal flavor
  • openstack baremetal keypair
  • openstack baremetal availability zone

Ironic does not have any notion of either of these, so it should be fine.

I'm still a bit on a -1 side because of potential users confusion. I wonder how
can we send a message across that prefixes do not designate a specific project,
but are rather just part of a "sentence". I'm specifically worried about
confusing "baremetal server" of Mogan with "baremetal node" of Ironic. For many
people these can be synonyms.

So, we'd like to ask if our CLI pattern is allowed before we release the client.

Thanks in advance!

[1] https://github.com/openstack/python-moganclient

--
Best Regards,
Zhenguo Niu


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Unsubscribe: OpenStack-dev-request@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
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responded May 25, 2017 by Dmitry_Tantsur (18,080 points)   2 3 7
0 votes

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 4:27 PM, Dmitry Tantsur dtantsur@redhat.com wrote:

On 05/25/2017 10:20 AM, Zhenguo Niu wrote:

hi all,

Hi!

I'm from the Mogan team, we chose the same keyward 'baremetal' when
implementing a OSC plugin [1]. As we think the baremetal command is
representative of a baremetal resource, not a service, so it makes sense
for different projects to share the top level resource name that OpenStack
can provide.

We do not "own" the word "baremetal", so nothing prevents you from using
it. However, in my experience:
1. This does confuse users, as they expect "openstack baremetal" to be a
prefix belonging to Ironic.
2. Collisions may happen. We had two collisions with TripleO already, one
resulted in us killing a TripleO command abruptly.

Alternatively, I don't mind to change this to 'bm' or something like that
for Mogan, but some operators told me that it will confuse users more to
have both 'baremetal' and 'bm' in there CLI.
And as I understand, ironic commands are not used frequently, and it's even
less if ironic inspector can help to automatically enroll nodes/ports.

The commands we have implemented are listed below, seems there's no
collision with Ironic presently, and Ironic doesn't manage such resources.

  • openstack baremetal server
  • openstack bareemtal flavor
  • openstack baremetal keypair
  • openstack baremetal availability zone

Ironic does not have any notion of either of these, so it should be fine.

I'm still a bit on a -1 side because of potential users confusion. I
wonder how can we send a message across that prefixes do not designate a
specific project, but are rather just part of a "sentence". I'm
specifically worried about confusing "baremetal server" of Mogan with
"baremetal node" of Ironic. For many people these can be synonyms.

We copied nova's server resource concept here, so users may easily to
accept the 'baremetal server'. For 'baremetal node', seems only
operators/administrators may use such commands, so seems the synonyms is
not a big problem as they are for different roles.

So, we'd like to ask if our CLI pattern is allowed before we release the
client.

Thanks in advance!

[1] https://github.com/openstack/python-moganclient

--
Best Regards,
Zhenguo Niu



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--
Best Regards,
Zhenguo Niu


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responded May 25, 2017 by Zhenguo_Niu (2,400 points)   1 4
0 votes

On 05/25/2017 11:38 AM, Zhenguo Niu wrote:

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 4:27 PM, Dmitry Tantsur <dtantsur@redhat.com
dtantsur@redhat.com> wrote:

On 05/25/2017 10:20 AM, Zhenguo Niu wrote:

    hi all,


Hi!


    I'm from the Mogan team, we chose the same keyward 'baremetal' when
    implementing a OSC plugin [1]. As we think the baremetal command is
    representative of a baremetal resource, not a service, so it makes sense
    for different projects to share the top level resource name that
    OpenStack can provide.


We do not "own" the word "baremetal", so nothing prevents you from using it.
However, in my experience:
1. This does confuse users, as they expect "openstack baremetal" to be a
prefix belonging to Ironic.
2. Collisions may happen. We had two collisions with TripleO already, one
resulted in us killing a TripleO command abruptly.

Alternatively, I don't mind to change this to 'bm' or something like that for
Mogan, but some operators told me that it will confuse users more to have both
'baremetal' and 'bm' in there CLI.
And as I understand, ironic commands are not used frequently, and it's even less
if ironic inspector can help to automatically enroll nodes/ports.

I don't share this understanding, depends on a situation. A user of a purely
baremetal cloud, or an installer like TripleO, may use the baremetal commands
all the time.

    The commands we have implemented are listed below, seems there's no
    collision with Ironic presently, and Ironic doesn't manage such resources.

    * openstack baremetal server <action> <args>
    * openstack bareemtal flavor <action> <args>
    * openstack baremetal keypair <action> <args>
    * openstack baremetal availability zone <action> <args>


Ironic does not have any notion of either of these, so it should be fine.

I'm still a bit on a -1 side because of potential users confusion. I wonder
how can we send a message across that prefixes do not designate a specific
project, but are rather just part of a "sentence". I'm specifically worried
about confusing "baremetal server" of Mogan with "baremetal node" of Ironic.
For many people these can be synonyms.

We copied nova's server resource concept here, so users may easily to accept the
'baremetal server'. For 'baremetal node', seems only operators/administrators
may use such commands, so seems the synonyms is not a big problem as they are
for different roles.

It's not obvious from a command name, though. They'll just get 403 when trying
to use them.

    So, we'd like to ask if our CLI pattern is allowed before we release the
    client.

    Thanks in advance!


    [1] https://github.com/openstack/python-moganclient
    <https://github.com/openstack/python-moganclient>

    -- 
    Best Regards,
    Zhenguo Niu


    __________________________________________________________________________
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    Unsubscribe:
    OpenStack-dev-request@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
    
    http://lists.openstack.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/openstack-dev
    



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--
Best Regards,
Zhenguo Niu


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Unsubscribe: OpenStack-dev-request@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
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responded May 25, 2017 by Dmitry_Tantsur (18,080 points)   2 3 7
0 votes

On 25 May 2017 at 11:03, Dmitry Tantsur dtantsur@redhat.com wrote:

On 05/25/2017 11:38 AM, Zhenguo Niu wrote:

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 4:27 PM, Dmitry Tantsur <dtantsur@redhat.com
dtantsur@redhat.com> wrote:

On 05/25/2017 10:20 AM, Zhenguo Niu wrote:

    hi all,


Hi!


    I'm from the Mogan team, we chose the same keyward 'baremetal'

when
implementing a OSC plugin [1]. As we think the baremetal command
is
representative of a baremetal resource, not a service, so it
makes sense
for different projects to share the top level resource name that
OpenStack can provide.

We do not "own" the word "baremetal", so nothing prevents you from

using it.
However, in my experience:
1. This does confuse users, as they expect "openstack baremetal" to
be a
prefix belonging to Ironic.
2. Collisions may happen. We had two collisions with TripleO already,
one
resulted in us killing a TripleO command abruptly.

Alternatively, I don't mind to change this to 'bm' or something like that
for Mogan, but some operators told me that it will confuse users more to
have both 'baremetal' and 'bm' in there CLI.
And as I understand, ironic commands are not used frequently, and it's
even less if ironic inspector can help to automatically enroll nodes/ports.

I don't share this understanding, depends on a situation. A user of a
purely baremetal cloud, or an installer like TripleO, may use the baremetal
commands all the time.

    The commands we have implemented are listed below, seems there's

no
collision with Ironic presently, and Ironic doesn't manage such
resources.

    * openstack baremetal server <action> <args>
    * openstack bareemtal flavor <action> <args>
    * openstack baremetal keypair <action> <args>
    * openstack baremetal availability zone <action> <args>


Ironic does not have any notion of either of these, so it should be

fine.

When using the openstack CLI I'm often in a 'discovery' mode, particularly
if I'm interacting with a service that I don't often interact with. I often
use the tab autocomplete and fuzzy match features of OSC as I explore.
Having command prefix match multiple services could be confusing,
particularly if I have python-moganclient installed but no mogan service
exists.

If there were an additional command prefix for mogan as is used for ironic
inspector (openstack baremetal introspection ...), this would at least
group the mogan commands.

    * openstack baremetal foo server <action> <args>
    * openstack baremetal foo flavor <action> <args>
    * openstack baremetal foo keypair <action> <args>
    * openstack baremetal foo availability zone <action> <args>
I'm still a bit on a -1 side because of potential users confusion. I

wonder
how can we send a message across that prefixes do not designate a
specific
project, but are rather just part of a "sentence". I'm specifically
worried
about confusing "baremetal server" of Mogan with "baremetal node" of
Ironic.
For many people these can be synonyms.

We copied nova's server resource concept here, so users may easily to
accept the 'baremetal server'. For 'baremetal node', seems only
operators/administrators may use such commands, so seems the synonyms is
not a big problem as they are for different roles.

It's not obvious from a command name, though. They'll just get 403 when
trying to use them.

    So, we'd like to ask if our CLI pattern is allowed before we

release the
client.

    Thanks in advance!


    [1] https://github.com/openstack/python-moganclient
    <https://github.com/openstack/python-moganclient>

    --         Best Regards,
    Zhenguo Niu


    ____________________________________________________________


OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe:
OpenStack-dev-request@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
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enstack.org?subject:unsubscribe

--
Best Regards,
Zhenguo Niu



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responded May 25, 2017 by mark_at_stackhpc.com (740 points)  
0 votes

Hi Zhenguo,

Thanks for bringing this up. Naming is hard :-(

Maybe this is a dumb question but your phrase "We copied nova's server resource concept here, so users may easily to accept the 'baremetal server'" made me wonder. I'm not a user of Mogan so I don't know if this would work, but OSC already has
openstack server
openstack flavor
openstack keypair

Why can't we use the existing OSC commands, and add an option eg '--bm' to indicate that the server is baremetal, not a VM?

Of course, having asked this, how does the user know/distinguish between getting a baremetal instance via mogan or via nova... (and should the end user actually know that there is a difference...) But I suspect I am digressing.

--ruby

From: Zhenguo Niu niu.zglinux@gmail.com
Reply-To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org
Date: Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 5:38 AM
To: "OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org
Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [OSC][ironic][mogan] Can we share the same keyword 'baremetal'?

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 4:27 PM, Dmitry Tantsur dtantsur@redhat.com wrote:
On 05/25/2017 10:20 AM, Zhenguo Niu wrote:
hi all,

Hi!

I'm from the Mogan team, we chose the same keyward 'baremetal' when implementing a OSC plugin [1]. As we think the baremetal command is representative of a baremetal resource, not a service, so it makes sense for different projects to share the top level resource name that OpenStack can provide.

We do not "own" the word "baremetal", so nothing prevents you from using it. However, in my experience:
1. This does confuse users, as they expect "openstack baremetal" to be a prefix belonging to Ironic.
2. Collisions may happen. We had two collisions with TripleO already, one resulted in us killing a TripleO command abruptly.

Alternatively, I don't mind to change this to 'bm' or something like that for Mogan, but some operators told me that it will confuse users more to have both 'baremetal' and 'bm' in there CLI.
And as I understand, ironic commands are not used frequently, and it's even less if ironic inspector can help to automatically enroll nodes/ports.

The commands we have implemented are listed below, seems there's no collision with Ironic presently, and Ironic doesn't manage such resources.

  • openstack baremetal server
  • openstack bareemtal flavor
  • openstack baremetal keypair
  • openstack baremetal availability zone

Ironic does not have any notion of either of these, so it should be fine.

I'm still a bit on a -1 side because of potential users confusion. I wonder how can we send a message across that prefixes do not designate a specific project, but are rather just part of a "sentence". I'm specifically worried about confusing "baremetal server" of Mogan with "baremetal node" of Ironic. For many people these can be synonyms.

We copied nova's server resource concept here, so users may easily to accept the 'baremetal server'. For 'baremetal node', seems only operators/administrators may use such commands, so seems the synonyms is not a big problem as they are for different roles.

So, we'd like to ask if our CLI pattern is allowed before we release the client.

Thanks in advance!

[1] https://github.com/openstack/python-moganclient

--
Best Regards,
Zhenguo Niu


OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)
Unsubscribe: OpenStack-dev-request@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
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Unsubscribe: OpenStack-dev-request@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
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--
Best Regards,
Zhenguo Niu


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responded May 25, 2017 by Loo,_Ruby (3,520 points)   2 2
0 votes

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 9:29 PM, Mark Goddard mark@stackhpc.com wrote:

On 25 May 2017 at 11:03, Dmitry Tantsur dtantsur@redhat.com wrote:

On 05/25/2017 11:38 AM, Zhenguo Niu wrote:

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 4:27 PM, Dmitry Tantsur <dtantsur@redhat.com
dtantsur@redhat.com> wrote:

On 05/25/2017 10:20 AM, Zhenguo Niu wrote:

    hi all,


Hi!


    I'm from the Mogan team, we chose the same keyward 'baremetal'

when
implementing a OSC plugin [1]. As we think the baremetal command
is
representative of a baremetal resource, not a service, so it
makes sense
for different projects to share the top level resource name that
OpenStack can provide.

We do not "own" the word "baremetal", so nothing prevents you from

using it.
However, in my experience:
1. This does confuse users, as they expect "openstack baremetal" to
be a
prefix belonging to Ironic.
2. Collisions may happen. We had two collisions with TripleO
already, one
resulted in us killing a TripleO command abruptly.

Alternatively, I don't mind to change this to 'bm' or something like
that for Mogan, but some operators told me that it will confuse users more
to have both 'baremetal' and 'bm' in there CLI.
And as I understand, ironic commands are not used frequently, and it's
even less if ironic inspector can help to automatically enroll nodes/ports.

I don't share this understanding, depends on a situation. A user of a
purely baremetal cloud, or an installer like TripleO, may use the baremetal
commands all the time.

    The commands we have implemented are listed below, seems there's

no
collision with Ironic presently, and Ironic doesn't manage such
resources.

    * openstack baremetal server <action> <args>
    * openstack bareemtal flavor <action> <args>
    * openstack baremetal keypair <action> <args>
    * openstack baremetal availability zone <action> <args>


Ironic does not have any notion of either of these, so it should be

fine.

When using the openstack CLI I'm often in a 'discovery' mode, particularly
if I'm interacting with a service that I don't often interact with. I often
use the tab autocomplete and fuzzy match features of OSC as I explore.
Having command prefix match multiple services could be confusing,
particularly if I have python-moganclient installed but no mogan service
exists.

If there were an additional command prefix for mogan as is used for ironic
inspector (openstack baremetal introspection ...), this would at least
group the mogan commands.

    * openstack baremetal foo server <action> <args>
    * openstack baremetal foo flavor <action> <args>
    * openstack baremetal foo keypair <action> <args>
    * openstack baremetal foo availability zone <action> <args>

In fact, at first we used an additional prefix for mogan (openstack
baremetal compute) like ironic inspector to group our commands, but then we
find there's no collision with the existing commands if we remove the
prefix and
only using 'baremetal'makes users type less. But seems we make this change
from the point of view of an OpenStack developer instead of the OSC users.

We can change to use 'openstack baremetal compute' if it makes less
confusing, It looks like a good alternative to me :)

I'm still a bit on a -1 side because of potential users confusion. I

wonder
how can we send a message across that prefixes do not designate a
specific
project, but are rather just part of a "sentence". I'm specifically
worried
about confusing "baremetal server" of Mogan with "baremetal node" of
Ironic.
For many people these can be synonyms.

We copied nova's server resource concept here, so users may easily to
accept the 'baremetal server'. For 'baremetal node', seems only
operators/administrators may use such commands, so seems the synonyms is
not a big problem as they are for different roles.

It's not obvious from a command name, though. They'll just get 403 when
trying to use them.

    So, we'd like to ask if our CLI pattern is allowed before we

release the
client.

    Thanks in advance!


    [1] https://github.com/openstack/python-moganclient
    <https://github.com/openstack/python-moganclient>

    --         Best Regards,
    Zhenguo Niu


    ____________________________________________________________


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Unsubscribe:
OpenStack-dev-request@lists.openstack.org?subject:unsubscribe
____________________________________________________________


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enstack.org?subject:unsubscribe

--
Best Regards,
Zhenguo Niu



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responded May 26, 2017 by Zhenguo_Niu (2,400 points)   1 4
0 votes

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 9:37 PM, Loo, Ruby ruby.loo@intel.com wrote:

Hi Zhenguo,

Thanks for bringing this up. Naming is hard :-(

Maybe this is a dumb question but your phrase "We copied nova's server
resource concept here, so users may easily to accept the 'baremetal
server'" made me wonder. I'm not a user of Mogan so I don't know if this
would work, but OSC already has

openstack server <action> <args>

openstack flavor <action> <args>

openstack keypair <action> <args>

Why can't we use the existing OSC commands, and add an option eg '--bm' to
indicate that the server is baremetal, not a VM?

Not sure if it's possible to achieve this by two different OSC plugins, and
as we use different options/parameters with nova when creating a baremetal
server, so I think it's hard to control by only a '--bm' option to
distinguish.
And compared with vm servers, baremetal servers have different
capabilities, it will make more confusing if you use 'openstack server
create' to create a baremetal instance, but you can't apply below commands
to it.

openstack server --bm pause/unpause
openstack server --bm shelve/unshelve
openstack server --bm migrate

Of course, having asked this, how does the user know/distinguish between
getting a baremetal instance via mogan or via nova... (and should the end
user actually know that there is a difference...) But I suspect I am
digressing.

As I understand, baremetal instance in nova is a 'specical virtual
machine'(raw performance). Users claim the instance by specifying a flavor
with 'vcpus', 'memory', "rootgb" instead of real hardware specs like (cpu
model/cores, hard drives type/amount, nics type/amount), then he get an
instance with properties like 'vm
state' and other 'virtual' stuff. As
baremetal in nova use the same model and same set of API that designed for
vms, so even for end users, it's not that easy to know which instance is a
baremetal server, so maybe it's good to call that baremetal server a
special vm instance.

So, yes the end user actually know that there is a difference between
getting a bremetal instance via mogan or via nova :)

--ruby

*From: *Zhenguo Niu niu.zglinux@gmail.com
*Reply-To: *"OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage
questions)" openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org
*Date: *Thursday, May 25, 2017 at 5:38 AM
*To: *"OpenStack Development Mailing List (not for usage questions)" <
openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org>
*Subject: *Re: [openstack-dev] [OSC][ironic][mogan] Can we share the same
keyword 'baremetal'?

On Thu, May 25, 2017 at 4:27 PM, Dmitry Tantsur dtantsur@redhat.com
wrote:

On 05/25/2017 10:20 AM, Zhenguo Niu wrote:

hi all,

Hi!

I'm from the Mogan team, we chose the same keyward 'baremetal' when
implementing a OSC plugin [1]. As we think the baremetal command is
representative of a baremetal resource, not a service, so it makes sense
for different projects to share the top level resource name that OpenStack
can provide.

We do not "own" the word "baremetal", so nothing prevents you from using
it. However, in my experience:
1. This does confuse users, as they expect "openstack baremetal" to be a
prefix belonging to Ironic.
2. Collisions may happen. We had two collisions with TripleO already, one
resulted in us killing a TripleO command abruptly.

Alternatively, I don't mind to change this to 'bm' or something like that
for Mogan, but some operators told me that it will confuse users more to
have both 'baremetal' and 'bm' in there CLI.

And as I understand, ironic commands are not used frequently, and it's
even less if ironic inspector can help to automatically enroll nodes/ports.

The commands we have implemented are listed below, seems there's no
collision with Ironic presently, and Ironic doesn't manage such resources.

  • openstack baremetal server
  • openstack bareemtal flavor
  • openstack baremetal keypair
  • openstack baremetal availability zone

Ironic does not have any notion of either of these, so it should be fine.

I'm still a bit on a -1 side because of potential users confusion. I
wonder how can we send a message across that prefixes do not designate a
specific project, but are rather just part of a "sentence". I'm
specifically worried about confusing "baremetal server" of Mogan with
"baremetal node" of Ironic. For many people these can be synonyms.

We copied nova's server resource concept here, so users may easily to
accept the 'baremetal server'. For 'baremetal node', seems only
operators/administrators may use such commands, so seems the synonyms is
not a big problem as they are for different roles.

So, we'd like to ask if our CLI pattern is allowed before we release the
client.

Thanks in advance!

[1] https://github.com/openstack/python-moganclient

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Best Regards,
Zhenguo Niu


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Zhenguo Niu


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Best Regards,
Zhenguo Niu


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responded May 26, 2017 by Zhenguo_Niu (2,400 points)   1 4
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