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[openstack-dev] [all][TC] 'team:danger-not-diverse tag' and my concerns

0 votes

Hi all,

I was reading over the TC IRC logs for this week (my weekly reading) and
I just wanted to let my thoughts and comments be known on:

http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-09-08-20.01.log.html#l-309

I feel it's very important to send a positive note for new/upcoming
projects and libraries... (and for everyone to remember that most
projects do start off with a small set of backers). So I just wanted to
try to ensure that we send a positive note with any tag like this that
gets created and applied and that we all (especially the TC) really
really considers the negative connotations of applying that tag to a
project (it may effectively ~kill~ that project).

I would really appreciate that instead of just applying this tag (or
other similarly named tag to projects) that instead the TC try to
actually help out projects with those potential tags in the first place
(say perhaps by actively listing projects that may need more
contributors from a variety of companies on the openstack blog under say
a 'HELP WANTED' page or something). I'd much rather have that vs. any
said tags, because the latter actually tries to help projects, vs just
stamping them with a 'you are bad, figure out how to fix yourself,
because you are not diverse' tag.

I believe it is the TC job (in part) to help make the community better,
and not via tags like this that IMHO actually make it worse; I really
hope that folks on the TC can look back at their own projects they may
have created and ask how would their own project have turned out if they
were stamped with a similar tag...

  • Josh


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asked Sep 11, 2015 in openstack-dev by Joshua_Harlow (12,560 points)   1 4 4

13 Responses

0 votes

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 3:26 PM, Joshua Harlow harlowja@outlook.com wrote:

Hi all,

I was reading over the TC IRC logs for this week (my weekly reading) and I
just wanted to let my thoughts and comments be known on:

http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-09-08-20.01.log.html#l-309

I feel it's very important to send a positive note for new/upcoming
projects and libraries... (and for everyone to remember that most projects
do start off with a small set of backers). So I just wanted to try to
ensure that we send a positive note with any tag like this that gets
created and applied and that we all (especially the TC) really really
considers the negative connotations of applying that tag to a project (it
may effectively ~kill~ that project).

I would really appreciate that instead of just applying this tag (or other
similarly named tag to projects) that instead the TC try to actually help
out projects with those potential tags in the first place (say perhaps by
actively listing projects that may need more contributors from a variety of
companies on the openstack blog under say a 'HELP WANTED' page or
something). I'd much rather have that vs. any said tags, because the latter
actually tries to help projects, vs just stamping them with a 'you are bad,
figure out how to fix yourself, because you are not diverse' tag.

I believe it is the TC job (in part) to help make the community better,
and not via tags like this that IMHO actually make it worse; I really hope
that folks on the TC can look back at their own projects they may have
created and ask how would their own project have turned out if they were
stamped with a similar tag...

I agree with Josh and, furthermore, maybe a similar "warning" could be
implicitly made by helping the community understand why the
"diverse-affiliation" tag matters. If we (through education on tags in
general) stated that the reason diverse-affiliation matters, amongst other
things, is because it shows that the project can potentially survive a
single contributor changing their involvement then wouldn't that achieve
the same purpose of showing stability/mindshare/collaboration for projects
with diverse-affiliation tag (versus those that don't have it) and make
them more "preferred" in a sense?

Thanks,
Shamail

  • Josh


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Thanks,
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t: @ShamailXD
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responded Sep 11, 2015 by Shamail (5,040 points)   1 2 3
0 votes

Thanks for starting this thread Josh.

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 12:26 PM, Joshua Harlow harlowja@outlook.com
wrote:

Hi all,

I was reading over the TC IRC logs for this week (my weekly reading) and I
just wanted to let my thoughts and comments be known on:

http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-09-08-20.01.log.html#l-309

I feel it's very important to send a positive note for new/upcoming
projects and libraries... (and for everyone to remember that most projects
do start off with a small set of backers). So I just wanted to try to
ensure that we send a positive note with any tag like this that gets
created and applied and that we all (especially the TC) really really
considers the negative connotations of applying that tag to a project (it
may effectively ~kill~ that project).

Completely agree. Projects that don’t automatically fit into the
‘stater-kit’ type of tag (e.g. Cue) are going to take longer to really
build a community. It doesn’t mean that the project isn’t active, or that
the team is not willing to fix bugs, or that operators should be afraid to
run it.

I would really appreciate that instead of just applying this tag (or other
similarly named tag to projects) that instead the TC try to actually help
out projects with those potential tags in the first place (say perhaps by
actively listing projects that may need more contributors from a variety of
companies on the openstack blog under say a 'HELP WANTED' page or
something). I'd much rather have that vs. any said tags, because the latter
actually tries to help projects, vs just stamping them with a 'you are bad,
figure out how to fix yourself, because you are not diverse' tag.

+1. If the TC can play a role in helping projects build their community, a
lot more of the smaller projects would be much more successful.

I believe it is the TC job (in part) to help make the community better,
and not via tags like this that IMHO actually make it worse; I really hope
that folks on the TC can look back at their own projects they may have
created and ask how would their own project have turned out if they were
stamped with a similar tag...

  • Josh


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responded Sep 11, 2015 by Vipul_Sabhaya (680 points)   1
0 votes

On Sep 11, 2015, at 12:45 PM, Shamail Tahir itzshamail@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 3:26 PM, Joshua Harlow <harlowja@outlook.com harlowja@outlook.com> wrote:
Hi all,

I was reading over the TC IRC logs for this week (my weekly reading) and I just wanted to let my thoughts and comments be known on:

http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-09-08-20.01.log.html#l-309

I feel it's very important to send a positive note for new/upcoming projects and libraries... (and for everyone to remember that most projects do start off with a small set of backers). So I just wanted to try to ensure that we send a positive note with any tag like this that gets created and applied and that we all (especially the TC) really really considers the negative connotations of applying that tag to a project (it may effectively ~kill~ that project).

I would really appreciate that instead of just applying this tag (or other similarly named tag to projects) that instead the TC try to actually help out projects with those potential tags in the first place (say perhaps by actively listing projects that may need more contributors from a variety of companies on the openstack blog under say a 'HELP WANTED' page or something). I'd much rather have that vs. any said tags, because the latter actually tries to help projects, vs just stamping them with a 'you are bad, figure out how to fix yourself, because you are not diverse' tag.

I believe it is the TC job (in part) to help make the community better, and not via tags like this that IMHO actually make it worse; I really hope that folks on the TC can look back at their own projects they may have created and ask how would their own project have turned out if they were stamped with a similar tag…

First, strongly agree:

Tags should be positive attributes or encouragement, not negative or discouraging. I think they should also be as objectively true as possible. Which Monty Taylor said later[1] in the discussion and Jay Pipes reiterated[2].

I agree with Josh and, furthermore, maybe a similar "warning" could be implicitly made by helping the community understand why the "diverse-affiliation" tag matters. If we (through education on tags in general) stated that the reason diverse-affiliation matters, amongst other things, is because it shows that the project can potentially survive a single contributor changing their involvement then wouldn't that achieve the same purpose of showing stability/mindshare/collaboration for projects with diverse-affiliation tag (versus those that don't have it) and make them more "preferred" in a sense?

I think I agree with others, most notably Doug Hellman[3] in the TC discussion; we need a marker of the other end of the spectrum. The absence of information is only significant if you know what’s missing and it’s importance.

Separately, I agree that more education around tags and their importance is needed.

I understand the concern is that we want to highlight the need for diversity, and I believe that instead of “danger-not-diverse” we’d be better served by “increase-diversity” or “needs-diversity” as the other end of the spectrum from “diverse-affiliation.” And I’ll go rant on the review now[4]. =]

—j

[1] http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-09-08-20.01.log.html#l-378
[2] http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-09-08-20.01.log.html#l-422
[3] http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-09-08-20.01.log.html#l-330
[4] https://review.openstack.org/#/c/218725/ https://review.openstack.org/#/c/218725/


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responded Sep 11, 2015 by Jim_Meyer (760 points)   1
0 votes

On 11/09/2015 3:26 PM, Joshua Harlow wrote:
Hi all,

I was reading over the TC IRC logs for this week (my weekly reading)
and I just wanted to let my thoughts and comments be known on:

http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-09-08-20.01.log.html#l-309

I feel it's very important to send a positive note for new/upcoming
projects and libraries... (and for everyone to remember that most
projects do start off with a small set of backers). So I just wanted
to try to ensure that we send a positive note with any tag like this
that gets created and applied and that we all (especially the TC)
really really considers the negative connotations of applying that tag
to a project (it may effectively ~kill~ that project).

I would really appreciate that instead of just applying this tag (or
other similarly named tag to projects) that instead the TC try to
actually help out projects with those potential tags in the first
place (say perhaps by actively listing projects that may need more
contributors from a variety of companies on the openstack blog under
say a 'HELP WANTED' page or something). I'd much rather have that vs.
any said tags, because the latter actually tries to help projects, vs
just stamping them with a 'you are bad, figure out how to fix
yourself, because you are not diverse' tag.

I believe it is the TC job (in part) to help make the community
better, and not via tags like this that IMHO actually make it worse; I
really hope that folks on the TC can look back at their own projects
they may have created and ask how would their own project have turned
out if they were stamped with a similar tag...

completely agree with everything here... i made a comment on the
patch[1] regarding this and was told the idea was that the purpose of
the tag was to note the potential fragility of a project if the leading
company were to decide to pull out. this seems like a valid item to
track but with that said, the existing wording of the proposal is not that.

[1] https://review.openstack.org/#/c/218725/

cheers,

--
gord


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responded Sep 11, 2015 by gordon_chung (19,300 points)   2 3 8
0 votes

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 2:30 PM, Jim Meyer jim@geekdaily.org wrote:

On Sep 11, 2015, at 12:45 PM, Shamail Tahir itzshamail@gmail.com wrote:

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 3:26 PM, Joshua Harlow harlowja@outlook.com
wrote:

Hi all,

I was reading over the TC IRC logs for this week (my weekly reading) and
I just wanted to let my thoughts and comments be known on:

http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-09-08-20.01.log.html#l-309

I feel it's very important to send a positive note for new/upcoming
projects and libraries... (and for everyone to remember that most projects
do start off with a small set of backers). So I just wanted to try to
ensure that we send a positive note with any tag like this that gets
created and applied and that we all (especially the TC) really really
considers the negative connotations of applying that tag to a project (it
may effectively ~kill~ that project).

I would really appreciate that instead of just applying this tag (or
other similarly named tag to projects) that instead the TC try to actually
help out projects with those potential tags in the first place (say perhaps
by actively listing projects that may need more contributors from a variety
of companies on the openstack blog under say a 'HELP WANTED' page or
something). I'd much rather have that vs. any said tags, because the latter
actually tries to help projects, vs just stamping them with a 'you are bad,
figure out how to fix yourself, because you are not diverse' tag.

I believe it is the TC job (in part) to help make the community better,
and not via tags like this that IMHO actually make it worse; I really hope
that folks on the TC can look back at their own projects they may have
created and ask how would their own project have turned out if they were
stamped with a similar tag…

First, strongly agree:

*Tags should be positive attributes or encouragement, not negative or
discouraging. *I think they should also be as objectively true as
possible. Which Monty Taylor said later[1] in the discussion and Jay Pipes
reiterated[2].

I agree with Josh and, furthermore, maybe a similar "warning" could be
implicitly made by helping the community understand why the
"diverse-affiliation" tag matters. If we (through education on tags in
general) stated that the reason diverse-affiliation matters, amongst other
things, is because it shows that the project can potentially survive a
single contributor changing their involvement then wouldn't that achieve
the same purpose of showing stability/mindshare/collaboration for projects
with diverse-affiliation tag (versus those that don't have it) and make
them more "preferred" in a sense?

I think I agree with others, most notably Doug Hellman[3] in the TC
discussion; we need a marker of the other end of the spectrum. The absence
of information is only significant if you know what’s missing and it’s
importance.

Separately, I agree that more education around tags and their importance
is needed.

I understand the concern is that we want to highlight the need for
diversity, and I believe that instead of “danger-not-diverse” we’d be
better served by “increase-diversity” or “needs-diversity” as the other end
of the spectrum from “diverse-affiliation.” And I’ll go rant on the review
now[4]. =]

Thank you for actually providing a review of the patch. I will respond to
the feedback in gerrit.


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responded Sep 12, 2015 by Joe_Gordon (24,620 points)   2 5 8
0 votes

On 11/09/15 12:26 -0700, Joshua Harlow wrote:
Hi all,

I was reading over the TC IRC logs for this week (my weekly reading)
and I just wanted to let my thoughts and comments be known on:

http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-09-08-20.01.log.html#l-309

I feel it's very important to send a positive note for new/upcoming
projects and libraries... (and for everyone to remember that most
projects do start off with a small set of backers). So I just wanted
to try to ensure that we send a positive note with any tag like this
that gets created and applied and that we all (especially the TC)
really really considers the negative connotations of applying that tag
to a project (it may effectively ~kill~ that project).

I would really appreciate that instead of just applying this tag (or
other similarly named tag to projects) that instead the TC try to
actually help out projects with those potential tags in the first
place (say perhaps by actively listing projects that may need more
contributors from a variety of companies on the openstack blog under
say a 'HELP WANTED' page or something). I'd much rather have that vs.
any said tags, because the latter actually tries to help projects, vs
just stamping them with a 'you are bad, figure out how to fix
yourself, because you are not diverse' tag.

I believe it is the TC job (in part) to help make the community
better, and not via tags like this that IMHO actually make it worse; I
really hope that folks on the TC can look back at their own projects
they may have created and ask how would their own project have turned
out if they were stamped with a similar tag...

While I agree the wording might not be the best, I also think it
isn't, by any means, trying to send a message such as "Stay away from
this project".

The issue with diversity in projects is real and it not only affects
the project but the consumers of such project as well. Tags ought to
be objective and we should provide as much relevant information as
possible for both, the developers community and the users community.

You mentioned that this tag may kill the project but I'd argue that it
that could also help the project. One of the issues I believe we're
facing with the big tent is that everyone wants to be part of the show
- It was true even before the big tent, it's just that it's easier to
get in now - but one of the things we're lacking of is good
information about where contributions should go to. Having projects
with diversity issues tagged may actually help identifying places were
newcomers may want to go and contribute to.

In the Big Tent we don't just need new acts, we also need people
willing to participate in existing ones.

FWIW, Zaqar is one of the projects that would fall into the category
of the ones that would be tagged and I honestly think that'll be good
for the project as it's becoming a more relevant piece for other
projects and the tag may raise awareness of what issues the community
currently has.

To your point about helping projects grow and improve. I fully agree
but it's also important to note that the TC members are not holding
their hands. One thing that came out of Liberty is the
project-team-guide[0], which is not just a guide to "how be part of
OpenStack" but rather a guide that'll, hopefully, help projects build
a better and healthier community that can grow.

In summary, I agree that the tag could, perhaps, use a more positive
name but I disagree with your thoughts that it's a negative tag that
will just harm projects. I also agree the TC should help projects grow
as much as possible but it'd be unfair to say nothing has been done.

Again, tags ought to be objective and honest w.r.t both communities,
the users' and devs'. I'm happy you brought this up.

Cheers,
Flavio

[0] http://docs.openstack.org/project-team-guide/

  • Josh


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responded Sep 14, 2015 by Flavio_Percoco (36,960 points)   3 7 11
0 votes

Joshua Harlow wrote:
I believe it is the TC job (in part) to help make the community better,
and not via tags like this that IMHO actually make it worse;

I think it's important to see the intent of the tag, rather than only
judge on its current proposed name. The big tent is vast, and there are
all kinds of projects, more or less mature, in it. The tag system is
there to help our ecosystem navigate the big tent by providing specific
bits of information about them.

One such important bit of information is how risky it is to invest on a
given project, how likely is it to still be around tomorrow. Some
projects are so dependent on a single organization that they may,
literally, disappear in one day when a single person (the CEO of that
organization) decides so. I think our ecosystem should know about that,
without having to analyze stackalytics data. This is why I support
creating a tag describing project teams that are extremely fragile, at
the other end of the spectrum from projects that are "healthily diverse".

I really
hope that folks on the TC can look back at their own projects they may
have created and ask how would their own project have turned out if they
were stamped with a similar tag...

The thing is, one of the requirements to become an official OpenStack
project in the "integrated release" model was to reach a given level of
diversity in contributors. So "our" OpenStack projects just could not
officially exist if they would have been stamped with a similar tag.

The big tent is more inclusive, as we no longer consider diversity
before we approve a project. The tag is the other side of the coin: we
still need to inform our ecosystem that some projects are less mature or
more fragile than others. The tag doesn't prevent the project to exist
in OpenStack, it just informs our users that there is a level of risk
associated with it.

Or are you suggesting it is preferable to hide that risk from our
operators/users, to protect that project team developers ?

--
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responded Sep 14, 2015 by Thierry_Carrez (57,480 points)   3 8 13
0 votes

-----Original Message-----
From: Thierry Carrez [mailto:thierry@openstack.org]
Sent: Monday, September 14, 2015 9:03 AM
To: openstack-dev@lists.openstack.org
Subject: Re: [openstack-dev] [all][TC] 'team:danger-not-diverse tag' and my
concerns

Or are you suggesting it is preferable to hide that risk from our
operators/users, to protect that project team developers ?

--
Thierry Carrez (ttx)

Unfortunately this seems to be the trend, not only in but in society. Everything needs to be everyone friendly and politically correct, it's not ok to talk about difficult topics with their real names because someone involved might get their feelings hurt, it's not ok to compete as losers might get their feelings hurt.

While being bit double edged sword I think this is exact example of such. One could argue if the project has reason to exist if saying out loud "it does not have diversity in its development community" will kill it. I think there is good amount of examples both ways in open source world where abandoned projects get picked up as there is people thinking they still have use case and value, on the other side maybe promising projects gets forgotten because no-one else really felt the urge to keep 'em alive.

Personally I feel this being bit like stamping feature experimental. "Please feel free to play around with it, but we do discourage you to deploy it in your production unless you're willing to pick up the maintenance of it in the case the team decides to do something else." There is nothing wrong with that.

I don't think these should be hiding behind the valance of the big tent and the consumer expectations should be set at least close to the reality without them needing to do huge amount of detective work. That was the point of the tags in first place, no?

Obviously above is just my blunt self. If someone went and rage killed their project because of that, good for you, now get yourself together and do it again. ;)

  • Erno (jokke) Kuvaja


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responded Sep 14, 2015 by kuvaja_at_hpe.com (1,320 points)   1
0 votes

Thierry Carrez wrote:
Joshua Harlow wrote:

I believe it is the TC job (in part) to help make the community better,
and not via tags like this that IMHO actually make it worse;

I think it's important to see the intent of the tag, rather than only
judge on its current proposed name. The big tent is vast, and there are
all kinds of projects, more or less mature, in it. The tag system is
there to help our ecosystem navigate the big tent by providing specific
bits of information about them.

One such important bit of information is how risky it is to invest on a
given project, how likely is it to still be around tomorrow. Some
projects are so dependent on a single organization that they may,
literally, disappear in one day when a single person (the CEO of that
organization) decides so. I think our ecosystem should know about that,
without having to analyze stackalytics data. This is why I support
creating a tag describing project teams that are extremely fragile, at
the other end of the spectrum from projects that are "healthily diverse".

I really
hope that folks on the TC can look back at their own projects they may
have created and ask how would their own project have turned out if they
were stamped with a similar tag...

The thing is, one of the requirements to become an official OpenStack
project in the "integrated release" model was to reach a given level of
diversity in contributors. So "our" OpenStack projects just could not
officially exist if they would have been stamped with a similar tag.

The big tent is more inclusive, as we no longer consider diversity
before we approve a project. The tag is the other side of the coin: we
still need to inform our ecosystem that some projects are less mature or
more fragile than others. The tag doesn't prevent the project to exist
in OpenStack, it just informs our users that there is a level of risk
associated with it.

Or are you suggesting it is preferable to hide that risk from our
operators/users, to protect that project team developers ?

Not really. I get the idea of informing operators/users about how this
project may need more contributors. I just want it to be a positive
statement vs. a negative one if possible; and I'd really like for the TC
to also have some kind of proposal for helping those projects get to be
more diverse (vs just labeling them).

Some ideas already mentioned + new ones:

  • Put the project on some kind of 'help wanted' page.
  • Help said projects sign-up for google summer of code (that may help
    increase diversity?).
  • Something else?

>


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responded Sep 14, 2015 by Joshua_Harlow (12,560 points)   1 4 4
0 votes

Perhaps gamify the tagging process? By inverting the tagging convention
from something negative to something positive like
"sponsored-by-company-x", you're offering bragging rights to companies that
are the sole sponsors of projects. "Here's a list of projects that Company
X directly supports, exclusively." It's a marketing advantage: they're the
experts on the project, etc. For successful projects, diversification
happens naturally. I see no benefit from casting such projects in a
negative light.

The TC can view the same tag with a more critical eye.

On Fri, Sep 11, 2015 at 2:26 PM, Joshua Harlow harlowja@outlook.com wrote:

Hi all,

I was reading over the TC IRC logs for this week (my weekly reading) and I
just wanted to let my thoughts and comments be known on:

http://eavesdrop.openstack.org/meetings/tc/2015/tc.2015-09-08-20.01.log.html#l-309

I feel it's very important to send a positive note for new/upcoming
projects and libraries... (and for everyone to remember that most projects
do start off with a small set of backers). So I just wanted to try to
ensure that we send a positive note with any tag like this that gets
created and applied and that we all (especially the TC) really really
considers the negative connotations of applying that tag to a project (it
may effectively ~kill~ that project).

I would really appreciate that instead of just applying this tag (or other
similarly named tag to projects) that instead the TC try to actually help
out projects with those potential tags in the first place (say perhaps by
actively listing projects that may need more contributors from a variety of
companies on the openstack blog under say a 'HELP WANTED' page or
something). I'd much rather have that vs. any said tags, because the latter
actually tries to help projects, vs just stamping them with a 'you are bad,
figure out how to fix yourself, because you are not diverse' tag.

I believe it is the TC job (in part) to help make the community better,
and not via tags like this that IMHO actually make it worse; I really hope
that folks on the TC can look back at their own projects they may have
created and ask how would their own project have turned out if they were
stamped with a similar tag...

  • Josh


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responded Sep 14, 2015 by Dolph_Mathews (9,560 points)   1 2 3
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